Canada's Capital Cachers / Cacheurs de la capitale du Canada

General Category => Cache Specific Discussion => Topic started by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 08:17:57

Title: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 08:17:57
Anybody know this guy ?     I did his caches simply because they are very close to my workplace but they are junk mostly.  Some of the containers have been upgraded and moved but not the cache page so I mentionned it in my found logs.  Now I am receiving stupid messages from this guy from geocaching.com.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: kirok on September 25, 2010, 09:50:36
Don't know him, but I received an e-mail from him when he assumed (incorrectly) that I had his funeral home cache archived.   The buzz is that he has been replacing his containers with ones that are more appropriate, yet still making rookie mistakes of moving the containers to new locations without updating coordinates / cache pages.  Until this new cacher introduces himself better to the community, finds at least one geocache, and maybe asks for some help, any new caches of his are on my ignore list.

Judging by the fact that it is Saturday morning, and not a soul has attempted to FTF on his new cache published Thursday, tells me that other people may be of the same opinion. 
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: portera on September 25, 2010, 11:26:39
And now there's another one...

Gavin Rossdale (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC2FP4T)
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: G_Fours on September 25, 2010, 13:49:30
He's giving sock puppets a bad name.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: GeoAventuriers on September 25, 2010, 20:37:29
Quote
Now I am receiving stupid messages from this guy from geocaching.com.

Now that's just plain childish and stupid.  Thought about writting a nasty found it log for DEADWOOD just to see if I would have gotten the same response.   >:(  I decided it would just have been a waste of time;  so I just wrote '' Found it...'nuf said''  :P

He put in his description for ''Log in a log'' that he didn't want to receive any hostile logs...  Looks like this CO can't stand any sort of constructive critisism. :-\ :-\

Went looking for his newest cache ''Gavin Rossdale'' but gave up after 2 minutes of searching.  I didn't feel comfortable looking around the bushes with all the cars stopping at the intersection; not to mention all the people waiting for the bus at the nearby bus stop.  All of which were giving me the evil eye!!!  :-[
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 21:40:28
how do I report to geocaching.com.

It seems the user has decided to delete every find I have made on his caches....

this is not right and even if they are bad caches I did find them and log them.....
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: model12 on September 25, 2010, 21:48:41
http://www.geocaching.com/faq/default.aspx

There's a link to contact Groundspeak at the bottom.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 21:52:58
ok I reposted my finds and he is playing a child game.  should I contact reviewer first ? I've never been in a situation like this before.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: graciious on September 25, 2010, 22:07:33
I would accept it and move on. I am considering deleting my find just so I don't have my name associated with his caches.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 22:12:49
that's the moral thing to do I agree...
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: graciious on September 25, 2010, 22:15:23
I deleted my log.  after all it's not about the numbers!  I have to learn to show support to cachers that respect the sport.  Sending rude or insulting emails to people I think are nice is just unacceptable.  I was going to email him, to let him know why I deleted my log but figure my comments would probably be rude and possibly defensive and it's just not worth it.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: graciious on September 25, 2010, 22:16:35
Quote
Thought about writting a nasty found it log for DEADWOOD just to see if I would have gotten the same response.

Just be careful which Deadwood gets your nasty log! I don't want his poor cache associated with my quality hide!   ;D ;D
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 22:21:26
Your log entry for the listing DEADWOOD (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 18:48:16
Your log entry for the listing Beam me up! (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 18:52:59
Your log entry for the listing i wanna rock (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 18:55:42
Your log entry for the listing OVERHEAD (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 18:56:23
Your log entry for the listing DEADWOOD (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 19:48:36
Your log entry for the listing Beam me up! (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 19:50:53
Your log entry for the listing i wanna rock (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 19:51:25
Your log entry for the listing OVERHEAD (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 19:52:02
Your log entry for the listing DEADWOOD (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 20:02:47
Your log entry for the listing Beam me up! (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 20:04:38
Your log entry for the listing i wanna rock (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 20:04:58
Your log entry for the listing OVERHEAD (Traditional Cache) was deleted by karl karlson at Saturday, 25 September 2010 20:05:23
:) I gave up....  But I hope I never meet him :)
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: model12 on September 25, 2010, 22:39:21
Report him to abuse@geocaching.com and cite your case. They will take care of it and reinstated and lock your logs. You found them; you deserve the finds.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 25, 2010, 22:48:03
thank you for the help.  I followed what you said.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: GeoAventuriers on September 25, 2010, 23:14:57
Quote
Just be careful which Deadwood gets your nasty log! I don't want his poor cache associated with my quality hide!   Grin Grin

Don't worry, yours was a great cache!!  ;D ;D ;)

Looks like this guy is one vindictive POS!!! :-\ :-\

Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: ocm_ott on September 26, 2010, 06:11:23
We did a couple of his caches, but we ignore them. I think from the childish hides and behaviour we might be dealing with a kid (at least I'm hoping so, an adult acting this way is different story).
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: missbug on September 27, 2010, 12:07:47
his new cache sounds like a letterbox hybrid or offset traditional, and is listed as a traditional.
http://coord.info/GC2FVAJ
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: narcissa on September 27, 2010, 12:37:13
I hit NA on that new one.

I have a feeling there's more to this story.

I'm really growing tired of sock puppets, and I think I can guess who's behind this one.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: graciious on September 27, 2010, 12:42:01
If someone is actually taking the time to publish this garbage, I hope they are taking the time to publish proper caches under their own name.  Furthermore, let me know who it is and I can ignore their caches too!
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: cron on September 27, 2010, 14:02:26
For that particular cache, I guess he could just change "Once at the coordinates" for "Near the coordinates" in the hints and whiners would stop whining. Twelve feet (about 3-4 meters) is within reasonable range.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: Taoiseach on September 27, 2010, 18:38:58
For that particular cache, I guess he could just change "Once at the coordinates" for "Near the coordinates" in the hints and whiners would stop whining. Twelve feet (about 3-4 meters) is within reasonable range.

Quote from: From the Guidelines
Traditional Caches

This is the original cache type consisting of (at a bare minimum) a container and a logbook. The cache may be filled with objects for trade. Normally you'll find a Tupperware-style container, ammo box, or bucket filled with goodies, or smaller container too small to contain items except for a logbook. The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache. A container with no logbook and just an object or codeword for verification generally does not qualify as a traditional cache.

If the co-ords are just off, that's one thing.  If the cache page actually says that the co-ords are not for the cache, and you have to read the hint to determine the true location of the final, that's another.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 27, 2010, 18:49:33


Looks like this guy is one vindictive POS!!! :-\ :-\


Oh beleive me he is... and a major at that.  I am fighting for the principal here.  Why would a sock puppet be able to delete logs when I actually pay to play this game and contribute back to it.  Claim filled with geocaching and the process has begun.  My logs will more than problably be reposted and locked.    ;D
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: CocaColaCacher on September 27, 2010, 18:55:48
Who is actually approving these caches in the first place?  The descriptions are non-sense, the containers have no thought put in to them and this last one with a redirect in the hint is just wrong.  In my opinion they should never have been approved in the first place.

What responsibility to the local reviewers have when deciding to post a cache?  Can't they refuse cases like this?  Should one be able to hid lots of caches when not actually finding any? 

Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: yukonshawn on September 27, 2010, 20:24:05
I think it is pretty evident from the writing style displayed in the cache description that we're dealing with someone who perhaps high school-aged at most.
Not that this comes as news or is shocking to anyone here or anything...
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: bluelamb03 on September 27, 2010, 20:34:07
Quote
What responsibility to the local reviewers have when deciding to post a cache?  Can't they refuse cases like this?  Should one be able to hid lots of caches when not actually finding any?

In fact the reviewers have their hands tied in such matters. The cache description may suck, the hint is useless and the location dubious, but if the cache meets the guidelines then they must publish the cache. They may not approve, but they've got to publish.

It looks like we have to reach out to "Karl Karlson" and attempt to guide him along. Some constructive criticism may help him improve his hides, though just finding a couple of dozen would certainly help....

Blue -
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: cron on September 27, 2010, 22:00:18
For that particular cache, I guess he could just change "Once at the coordinates" for "Near the coordinates" in the hints and whiners would stop whining. Twelve feet (about 3-4 meters) is within reasonable range.

Quote from: From the Guidelines
Traditional Caches

This is the original cache type consisting of (at a bare minimum) a container and a logbook. The cache may be filled with objects for trade. Normally you'll find a Tupperware-style container, ammo box, or bucket filled with goodies, or smaller container too small to contain items except for a logbook. The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache. A container with no logbook and just an object or codeword for verification generally does not qualify as a traditional cache.

If the co-ords are just off, that's one thing.  If the cache page actually says that the co-ords are not for the cache, and you have to read the hint to determine the true location of the final, that's another.

That's my point. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference within 12 feet (a GPSr is not that precise). Wrong words were used in the hint and it's unfortunate it triggered this violent response on the cache page. There's a difference between constructive criticism and public bullying. I think the "Found it" logs were much more helpful than a "Needs Archiving" one...

He's probably a newbie and newbies are allowed to place caches (from the guidelines). He'll learn over time. Maybe Groundspeak will also learn a lesson here.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: kirok on September 27, 2010, 22:46:52
He's probably a newbie and newbies are allowed to place caches (from the guidelines). He'll learn over time. Maybe Groundspeak will also learn a lesson here.

Not looking to start any wars here cron, but you need to understand people's position on this.  I see that you have yet to find one of this person's caches, so you have yet to be exposed to his geo-trash.  Add to that, he now has 8 placed caches without a single find to his name.   The slightest criticism in a cache log prompts for a violent e-mail response from him and in some cases, deletion of your log, so I think people are somewhat justified in venting a bit in his direction.

That said, I believe the solution is quite simple, and it applies to his caches as it does to any other cache that people don't want to find.  Hit the Ignore button.  I only wish I could Ignore an entire user profile instead of each individual cache.  If more people ignore his geo-junk, either he'll learn and do a better job, or just fade away and stop placing them.  Either way, we win.    If people continue to find his "caches" however, and say things like TFTC!, it only encourages him to continue.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: narcissa on September 27, 2010, 23:49:47
this violent response

Violent?

The cache obviously needs reviewer attention. The only way to get that in a hurry is to hit "Needs Archived." My log clearly states my reason for doing so.

"Needs Archived" really ought to be called "Needs Reviewer Attention." At the very least, this would prevent some of the hysterical responses and bizarre accusations that arise over these logs, and it would make some geocachers less reticent to use it.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: kirok on September 28, 2010, 05:05:52
Violent?

Sorry, very poor choice of words on my part.  Call them childish and inappropriate.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: cron on September 28, 2010, 07:24:59
I'm aware of the hides (he clearly described them in his first caches) and the fact he has no logged finds (because we can't know if he ever found one). But you're right, I can ignore caches even if they're not on my ignore list and that's probably why I have a different opinion.

I make no assumptions and I'm not judging someone on mere intent, but I see childish behaviour on both sides here.

Anybody invited him to the monthly instead of bullying him on the forum (he may not even be aware there's a forum and an entire thread about him)?
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: Taoiseach on September 28, 2010, 10:29:01
Violent?

Sorry, very poor choice of words on my part.  Call them childish and inappropriate.

Your usage of 'violent' is ok.  Calling somebody's usage of a Needs Archived log to draw a reviewer's attention to a cache is over the top.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: narcissa on September 28, 2010, 14:51:30
Violent?

Sorry, very poor choice of words on my part.  Call them childish and inappropriate.

No no, I was questioning cron's use of the word "violent" to describe using a "Needs Archived" log. It's just ridiculous the way some cache owners insist on vilifying a perfectly valid log action that simply brings a reviewer's attention to a problem cache.

I haven't received any email from this sock puppet so far and I haven't seen any examples, so I wouldn't be able to comment on the relative violence of it. :)
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: narcissa on September 28, 2010, 14:55:29
Anybody invited him to the monthly instead of bullying him on the forum (he may not even be aware there's a forum and an entire thread about him)?

It's almost certainly a sock puppet for someone who is perfectly well aware of the various events held in this area.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: model12 on September 28, 2010, 15:02:30
As with any situation like this, they will eventually get outed, then face the wrath of their peers. 'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive...'

Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: bluelamb03 on September 28, 2010, 15:22:22
Just to add to the idle speculation....

It doesn't seem to me to be an experienced cacher listing caches through a sock puppet account. The Karlson caches I've found so far have had all the hallmarks of a n00b cache hider: poor locations, poor cache descriptions/ratings and bad hides!

I think this may very well be a newcomer who's experimenting with cache hides.

Now, why they haven't logged any finds is a different question. I have no theory there....

Blue -
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: cron on September 28, 2010, 15:49:15
Violent?

Sorry, very poor choice of words on my part.  Call them childish and inappropriate.

No no, I was questioning cron's use of the word "violent" to describe using a "Needs Archived" log. It's just ridiculous the way some cache owners insist on vilifying a perfectly valid log action that simply brings a reviewer's attention to a problem cache.

I haven't received any email from this sock puppet so far and I haven't seen any examples, so I wouldn't be able to comment on the relative violence of it. :)

Maybe he died of a stroke when he got your note? See, it was violent.  :o

There are many ways to bring back a newbie on track. You can write him an email (at least try it and not let what you heard get in the way), you can post a note on the cache page, you can write an email to a reviewer (privately), you can write to Groundspeak (privately) or you can go public with the NA log (in order of niceness, the first one being the nicest).

You tagged him (maybe her?) has a sock puppet account. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Because of that, you decided to post a NA log, which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have done for any other newbie (or experienced cacher).

I guess it's a matter of perception.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 28, 2010, 15:59:04
I don't want to bash or be hard.  The point of my topic was to know if anybody knew him and get some help on what to do about my situation.  And I have received the help and pointers I needed to know.  This is not what I wanted the thread to grow up as.

My logs did exactly what Cron says.  I told him that the container he used was getting better but I suggested that, when he does changes of that nature he should update the cache page.  I also did say that it would be wise to also update the coordinates when he decides to change the location of his hide.

I got a personnal message saying .... and I quote 1 word "YAWN" and woops all my logs got deleted.  Now groudspeek is telling to be patient and his contacting the CO... but with attitude like this from the CO I hope I don't loose faith in groudspeak and they will make it right.  Like I said, at this point it's a question of what is right to do and what is not.  He has no right to start deleting logs like this and I don't think Groundspeek should allow him to do it.

I am crossing my fingers and waiting for the verdict :)   If other want to try and educate him... i think it's great, but I think his mind is pretty much made up. 
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: kirok on September 28, 2010, 16:35:37
.... and I quote 1 word "YAWN" and woops all my logs got deleted. 

On a related, but semi-off topic note.  Did you get a notification from geocaching.com that your log got deleted?  Just curious to know how one finds out without checking every cache page, or noticing their count went down by one and then trying to figure out which log went missing.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: narcissa on September 28, 2010, 16:58:06
There are many ways to bring back a newbie on track. You can write him an email (at least try it and not let what you heard get in the way), you can post a note on the cache page, you can write an email to a reviewer (privately), you can write to Groundspeak (privately) or you can go public with the NA log (in order of niceness, the first one being the nicest).

You tagged him (maybe her?) has a sock puppet account. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Because of that, you decided to post a NA log, which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have done for any other newbie (or experienced cacher).

I posted a Needs Archived note because the cache had just been published and it was clearly problematic.

Contacting other geocachers privately isn't a great idea when it comes to cache issues. It's best to simply turn the matter over to the people who have the authority to deal with the problem, rather than arguing about it in private. Private messages can quickly go off the rails, especially with geocachers like this one who seem determined to cause trouble. Private messages don't alert other geocachers that there's a problem with the cache.

Contacting the reviewer privately comes with its own problems. In Ontario, we have several reviewers who take turns dealing with cache issues. There needs to be a record of activity on the cache that any reviewer can follow.

It is illogical and incorrect to attach personal meaning to a site function that serves a very specific purpose. "Needs Archived" isn't "nice" or "not nice." It's a utility that brings a reviewer's attention to a problem cache and flags the cache for other geocachers. That's what it's there for.

Hysterical overreactions to "Needs Archived" logs make other geocachers less likely to use this valuable tool. Stop.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 28, 2010, 17:18:55
.... and I quote 1 word "YAWN" and woops all my logs got deleted. 

On a related, but semi-off topic note.  Did you get a notification from geocaching.com that your log got deleted?  Just curious to know how one finds out without checking every cache page, or noticing their count went down by one and then trying to figure out which log went missing.

Yes you do get a notification from Groundspeek when a log of yours gets deleted.  Go back to page 1 of this topic near the bottom of the screen you'll see what I mean. If you want to see the results just tell me if you have found one of my caches and i'll delete your log.  Then post it back....    I reposted about 4-5 times on every cache pages that the logs got deleted but he kept deleting them as soon as he saw them or got notification of them.   I stopped after that and contacted groundspeak. This kind of hints make me think teenage behavior.  I hardly see a seasoned geocacher hidding behind  a sock puppet account deleting my logs out of spite when I really didn't say anything negative, bad, or made any personnal attacks to him.  I see a kid in his bubble getting wrapped up because I stood up to him.  That is also why I hope Groundspeak will take a favorable position.   And yes my found caches where at 1027 and they are now 1023....
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: cron on September 28, 2010, 18:20:05
Hysterical overreactions to "Needs Archived" logs make other geocachers less likely to use this valuable tool. Stop.

To quote someone else:

Quote
YAWN

I guess everything has been said.
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: kirok on September 28, 2010, 21:15:52
If you want to see the results just tell me if you have found one of my caches and i'll delete your log.  Then post it back....   

Not needed, I trust your explanation.  Thanks!  ;D

Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: bluelamb03 on September 28, 2010, 21:53:16
I trust The Bod got the answers to his question about appealing the log deletions?
And everyone has had their say about Karlson's antics and what to do about them?
Then I don't see the need for this topic to continue unless there's a significant development in the situation. For example if the deleted finds are restored, or not. This is gradually becoming a repetitious and annoying argument about how to educate a n00b.

Perhaps cron and narcissa can carry on through personal emails?

Blue -
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on September 28, 2010, 22:00:37
thank you Bluelamb... I almost feel sorry to have opened up a topic only to have it hijacked.  Can a moderator please close this thread.  I have gotten my answers.

I found the button .... I'll re-open to post final decision.... 
Title: Re: karl karlson
Post by: The_BOD on October 05, 2010, 12:43:00
GS restored my 4 logs and locked them.  Thanks for the suggestions.  They worked for me.   ;D