Author Topic: "Dangerous" caches  (Read 4218 times)

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bluelamb03

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"Dangerous" caches
« on: October 03, 2012, 13:29:06 »
Last month's workshop discussed cache containers, the good the bad and the ugly, but at the end of the evening I brought up cache locations and how lately everyone wants to 'challenge' cachers with a terrain 4 or 4.5 cache. There's a number of caches now that are 60 feet up in a tree, or up on the side of a cliff.

I know, I know, there's the note at the top of each cache  page: Use of geocaching.com services is subject to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer. and that link takes you a page of legal boilerplate that begins with Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. I guess that means that you can wash your hands of any responsibility if someone falls out of that tree and kills themselves? Not your problem, right?

There's a cache in the news that's a worthwhile example of this, "Tunnelin'" A cache by thegoonies21, http://coord.info/GC2D6FZ

It was located 800 meters or so up a storm-water sewer, until it was removed by the municipality. It had been in place for 2 years and had been found by 130 people with no problems so why did the city remove it?  The nanny-state gone mad again?

Two words: "Confined Space". Look it up.

Essentially, BY LAW, no city worker can enter that storm sewer without first testing the atmosphere within it for oxygen levels, flammable and toxic gases. Ventilation must be performed and a rescue capability has to be on-site. Even the fire department, had they been called out to help someone in the tunnel, would have not entered without atmospheric testing and SCBA devices. So here is a location that is considered a hazardous workplace by Occupational Health and Safety regulators across North America, but some cacher (21 finds, just this one hide) thinks it's a great place to put a cache..... and the reviewer, Abe Froman, http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=f2efaa12-1bba-464e-b05e-88dda9f24417, published it. *sigh*

What would have been the consequences if a party of geocachers had been killed by a hydrogen sulphide (H2S) build-up, common in groundwater and sewers? Or if a sudden rainfall had produced something like what happened at " The Orc's Treasure" A cache by Hinge Thunder & Rippie, http://coord.info/GC674E

You can read about that at http://www.notaboutthenumbers.com/2012/08/16/geocaching-family-rescued-from-cave/

Ultimately the cache was removed because it was placed without the city's permission. No landowner is going to 'permit' people to play a game in a location that's legally a confined space, a hazardous workplace. But there is a bigger question. What happens to geocaching in our area when someone uses poor judgement, or tries for the cache in poor conditions, or just slips, and gets hurt. When that makes the news what will the landowner/property managers think about geocaching and their liabilities?

Blue -
Without shared stories we are strangers.
- Sheila Mendonça


Frogging101

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 13:50:30 »
Last month's workshop discussed cache containers

I wish I had been there then; I want to start placing more caches and I want to know about cache containers (I also need/want to learn some things about location, too).

bluelamb03

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 14:09:09 »
Have a look at http://canadascapitalcachers.ca/forum/index.php?topic=862.0#top for some idea of what we discussed.
It's not rocket science, just common sense.

Blue -
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PA

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 14:11:06 »
Is there an attribute for gas masks?

BlackRose67

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 15:00:01 »
Is there an attribute for gas masks?
No, but there is a Dangerous Area attribute.

Starkiller

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 15:15:31 »
... But there is a bigger question. What happens to geocaching in our area when someone uses poor judgement, or tries for the cache in poor conditions, or just slips, and gets hurt. When that makes the news what will the landowner/property managers think about geocaching and their liabilities?

Liability concerns probably played a major role in Ontario Parks’ near outright ban on geocache placement... That is one possible outcome. Geocachers need to place relatively safe geocaches with landowner permission, and should identify risks on the cache page in text and attributes (because many gps units don’t show the attributes). Perhaps some landowners/managers would ban or severely restrict the activity on their property over liability concerns.

Another good question is... if you were injured while seeking a geocache, would you ever sue the landowner? If so, under what circumstances?

BlackRose67

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 19:31:28 »
Not sure what's more frightening; the fact that someone thought a cache like that was a good idea (and it was published) or the fact that people willingly walked almost a kilometer into a storm sewer just to get a smilie? 

If it was set up fairly close to the end like "Photocrasher's Revenge" (which I have not done and don't know if I will do it) it wouldn't be as bad.

Good thing it was a happy ending at "The Orc's Treasure"

GreyingJay

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 09:38:47 »
And yet, I've walked a mile in pitch blackness into an abandoned underground subway tunnel to get a cache...

bluelamb03

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2012, 10:37:01 »
And yet, I've walked a mile in pitch blackness into an abandoned underground subway tunnel to get a cache...

http://coord.info/GC6FBE

Not a confined space, an explicitly hazardous environment, though the thick dust made me wonder what we were breathing in....
I was more concerned about the denizens of that tunnel. Notice all the disclaimers on the cache description? A function of when it was placed I think. Fortunately we were a large group....

Blue -
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- Sheila Mendonça


Frogging101

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 11:29:48 »
And yet, I've walked a mile in pitch blackness into an abandoned underground subway tunnel to get a cache...

http://coord.info/GC6FBE

Not a confined space, an explicitly hazardous environment, though the thick dust made me wonder what we were breathing in....
I was more concerned about the denizens of that tunnel. Notice all the disclaimers on the cache description? A function of when it was placed I think. Fortunately we were a large group....

Blue -

I was reading through some of those logs. Damn that is creepy! What denizens are you talking about? Rats? Homeless people?

bluelamb03

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 11:50:45 »
Quote
Rats? Homeless people?

Yes,

Blue -
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- Sheila Mendonça


RDLtrekker

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 11:59:44 »
Would I sue a landowner? Well, I seem to remember there was one case in the news where a boy and his father were geocaching somewhere in the US on public property that was skirting private land. The private landowner, approaching the cachers yelled for them to get off his land with a raised shotgun. Of course, the geocachers obliged but apparently the gun went off and the boy was shot. Now the boy survived but in this case, I would sue (and I think the geocachers did) - the cachers were NOT on his private property and the landowner had no right to shoot at them.

Aren't you glad you don't live in the US? ... sorry, did that come out load?  ;)  However, I do visit and cache in the US, so the above story is certainly on my mind when I set out... (funny how this does not concern me when caching in the Great White North, oups again, I have to learn to use my inside voice). I try to use extra caution in the US/internationally and be extra friendly ;) if I do meet some locals. Big smile with "hi, I'm visiting from Canada and geocaching, ever heard of it?"...

So for the most part, no, I would not sue a landowner if I got hurt by climbing a tree or stepping on a hidden hole... I take on the responsibility of my own actions and know that there are inherent dangers of clamoring about looking to Tupperware in the woods... or anywhere else :).

RDL
Just one more... :) !


Frogging101

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 12:48:18 »
Would I sue a landowner? Well, I seem to remember there was one case in the news where a boy and his father were geocaching somewhere in the US on public property that was skirting private land. The private landowner, approaching the cachers yelled for them to get off his land with a raised shotgun. Of course, the geocachers obliged but apparently the gun went off and the boy was shot. Now the boy survived but in this case, I would sue (and I think the geocachers did) - the cachers were NOT on his private property and the landowner had no right to shoot at them.

Aren't you glad you don't live in the US? ... sorry, did that come out load?  ;)  However, I do visit and cache in the US, so the above story is certainly on my mind when I set out... (funny how this does not concern me when caching in the Great White North, oups again, I have to learn to use my inside voice). I try to use extra caution in the US/internationally and be extra friendly ;) if I do meet some locals. Big smile with "hi, I'm visiting from Canada and geocaching, ever heard of it?"...

So for the most part, no, I would not sue a landowner if I got hurt by climbing a tree or stepping on a hidden hole... I take on the responsibility of my own actions and know that there are inherent dangers of clamoring about looking to Tupperware in the woods... or anywhere else :).

RDL

Agreed. I would not sue anybody for anything that happens to me unless they were the direct cause of it. Say I'm skateboarding (I don't skateboard, just an example) downtown in front of a privately owned building and I fall and break my head open. Would I sue the owner of the building? Hell no. It is in no way their fault that I was doing something stupid and got hurt, even if it was on their property. Why do people think that they can put the blame on someone else who had absolutely zero involvement with their activities and subsequent injury? I find it sickening that people do this. They take advantage of the law by blaming someone else just so they can get free money.

elyob

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 13:01:43 »
Concerning Tunnelin' I was intrigued by the 48 favourites, 45% of premium members loved this cache.  What does that say about our worldwide group of weirdos?

bluelamb03

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Re: "Dangerous" caches
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 13:30:32 »
Concerning Tunnelin' I was intrigued by the 48 favourites, 45% of premium members loved this cache.  What does that say about our worldwide group of weirdos?

I think it says a lot about the cachers who found the cache, about the type of cacher they are, the type of caches they like. There are people who would do anything for that one grid square remaining in their matrix, who need to have the most 5/5 caches, who need that extra bit of risk and a touch of the outré to make the cache worthwhile. I suspect for every cacher who found that cache you could find others who said no thank you.

It was a storm sewer pipe. It was probably muddy, wet, smelled bad and was full of spiders etc. A real treat! Not the kind of spot I expect a geocache to bring me too, and the risk of death is just the icing on the cake!

Blue -
Without shared stories we are strangers.
- Sheila Mendonça